Who's Growing Improved American Persimmons? Suggestions welcome!

[jrd51]

@Fusion_power

An old but very valid saying is to cross your best with your best and sometimes the offspring will be better than the best.

Oh, I get it. Maybe I should have written, ". . . why Claypool would have crossed it so many times, promoting the offspring, if EG was unequivocally the best. Claypool made many such crosses (i.e., XYZ x Early Golden). Then he tested the results. The vast majority, he dismissed – presumably no better than the parents. But a few (e.g., Morris Burton x Early Golden = H63A), he promoted. I hope (!!!) it was because these few gems were better than the parents. The only other explanation would be that Early Golden is still the best tasting but it falls short in other ways. But that doesn’t deny my observation that Early Golden does not end up at the top of most taste tests published here. That’s more often, nit not always, Barbra’s Blush, H-63A, H-118 OR H-120, and a few others that I ignore because they ripen too late.

I don’t get your last point – how does a cross between two astringent persimmons (Prok, EG) produce a non-astringent offspring?

[Fusion_power]

I should probably have written “loses astringency”. Your mind is too wrapped up in Japanese non-astringent.

[jrd51]

You’re right that when think non-astringent, I mean non-astringent. It doesn’t matter whether it is Japanese-style PCNA, Japanese-style PVNA, or Chinese-style PCNA – all genetically different. That’s also what I envision when I imagine a non-astringent hybrid (e.g., JT-02 x Taishu). Non-astringent means not astringent when the fruit is otherwise ripe enough to be edible.

When it coms to Americans, I’m sensitive to the issue of “non-astringency” because forum members from time to time assert or speculate that various American names meet this criterion. For example, a few years ago, there was speculation that Morris Burton loses astringency so early that it might meet the criterion. But somehow, the air went out of that ballon. And others similar.

I got excited above because I thought you might know something new.

[jrd51]

[quote=“jrd51, post:518, topic:54573”]
I’ve read a gazillion taste tests and I just haven’t walked away with the impression that Early Golden is always (or even often) the winner.

/quote[]

Just another attempt to illustrate my point. Here’s a thread that begins with an OP asking for help choosing an American persimmon variety. The OP mentions Early Golden twice. In 46 subsequent posts, full of suggestions, Early Golden is mentioned once.

[hambone]

Does anyone know the parents of “Lehman’s Delight” 100-46? I can’t find it anywhere on Google.

[clarkinks]

@hambone

This is lehman and Claypools work
CLAYP.XLS (368 KB)

[hambone]

Thanks Clark. I don’t see 100-46 in that database.

[clarkinks]

Sorry that one goes to L only im not sure he finished the 100s let me look

https://growingfruit.org/t/question-the-history-of-a-persimmon-or-know-some-history-post-it-here/64856/4

[snowflake]

@clarkinks

Sorry that one goes to L

A - L are Claypool.

[clarkinks]

@snowflake

Alex is selling Lehmans seed crosses Jerry Lehman's "Field West" American Persimmon Breeding Mix – Experimental Farm Network Seed Store

Perfect circle sells various ones also

perfect circle farm

[clarkinks]

Fruitwoodnursery.com now sells these

1. Yates American Persimmon Scionwood (APE39)
   (American Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds , New Products)
   Created on 10 March 2024

2. Lena American Persimmon Scionwood (APE37)
   (American Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds , New Products)
   Created on 10 March 2024

3. Morris Burton American Persimmon Scionwood (APE36)
   (American Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds , New Products)
   Created on 10 March 2024

4. Celebrity American Persimmon Scionwood (APE35)
   (American Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds , New Products)
   Created on 10 March 2024

5. Lehmans Delight (100-45) American Persimmon Scionwood (APE34)
   (American Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds , New Products)
   Another great variety developed by the late Jerry Lehman, it has very large sweet fruit with an excellent flavor. Ripens very late extending the fresh persimmon season. Hardy zones 5-9.
   Created on 10 March 2024

6. Super Sweet American Persimmon Scionwood (APE33)
   (American Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds , New Products)
   Created on 10 March 2024

7. Yate/Juhl American Persimmon Scionwood (APE32)
   (American Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds , New Products)
   Very productive self fertile trees has excellent large super sweet fruit with melting flesh, no astringency and a touch of apricot flavor.
   Created on 10 March 2024

8. Deer Magnet American Persimmon Scionwood (APE31)
   (American Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds , New Products)
   Created on 10 March 2024

9. Prairie Sun -A33 American Persimmon Scionwood (APE30)
   (American Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds , New Products)
   An abundant producer of large golden orange, sweet, delicious firm fruit. Self fertile seedless fruit ripens early. Another great Claypool selection. Hardy zones 5-9.
   Created on 10 March 2024

10. Mohler American Persimmon Scionwood (APE29)
    (American Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds , New Products)
    The earliest ripening persimmon known. Very cold hardy and excellent flavor. Hardy zones 5-9.
    Created on 10 March 2024

11. Journey American Persimmon Scionwood (APE28)
    (American Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds , New Products)
    Journey is an excellent American X Asian persimmon cross that is said to be one of the very earlies to ripen in the season. Very high quality with a taste of vanilla. Said to be an extremely heavy pro …
    Created on 10 March 2024

12. I-94 Valeene Beauty American Persimmon Scionwood (APE27)
    (American Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds , New Products)
    A cross of ‘Mitchellena’ x ‘Early Golden’ it produces a large high quality sweet fruit. Very productive and precocious tree is vigorous with an upright growth. Hardy zones 5-
    Created on 10 March 2024

13. Gem American Persimmon Scionwood (APE26)
    (American Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds )
    Created on 24 April 2023

14. Gateway American Persimmon Scionwood (APE25)
    (American Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds )
    An excellent new American Persimmon variety discovered by Mississippi fruit explorer Taylor Yowell.
    Created on 24 April 2023

15. Kassandra American Persimmon Scionwood (APE24)
    (American Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds )
    Created on 22 November 2022

16. Weber Blue American Persimmon Scionwood (APE23)
    (American Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds )
    Created on 22 November 2022

17. Asian Persimmon Seedling Plugs (PSP1)
    (Asian Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds , Asian Persimmon Seedling Plugs)
    Seedlings of our favorite varieties of Asian Persimmons. Mainly Coffee Cake, Izu and Saijo. All seedlings are grown from seed of grafted superior persimmon varieties. Persimmons come fairly true from seed, …
    Created on 30 April 2022

18. Russian Beauty American Persimmon Scionwood (APE22)
    (American Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds )
    Created on 30 April 2022

19. Yeddo Asian Persimmon Scionwood (PER42)
    (Asian Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds )
    Created on 30 April 2022

20. Great Wall Asian Persimmon Scionwood (PER41)
    (Asian Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds )
    Created on 30 April 2022

21. Hana Gosho Persimmons Scionwood (PER40)
    (Asian Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds )
    Created on 19 November 2021

22. Nui Wai Persimmon Scionwood (PER39)
    (Asian Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds )
    Created on 19 November 2021

23. Oku Gosho Persimmon Scionwood (PER38)
    (Asian Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds )
    Created on 19 November 2021

24. Mikitani Gosho Persimmon Scionwood (PER37)
    (Asian Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds )
    Created on 19 November 2021

25. Farmacista Honorati Persimmon Scionwood (PER36)
    (Asian Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds )
    Created on 19 November 2021

26. Fujiwara Gosho Persimmon Scionwood (PER36)
    (Asian Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds )
    Created on 19 November 2021

27. Castellani Persimmon Scionwood (PER35)
    (Asian Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds )
    Created on 19 November 2021

28. Korean Persimmon Scionwood (PER34)
    (Asian Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds )
    Created on 19 November 2021

29. Mishirasu Persimmon Scionwood (PER33)
    (Asian Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds )
    Created on 19 November 2021

30. Giombo Asian Persimmon Scionwood (Per32)
    (Asian Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds )
    Created on 19 November 2021

31. Rispoli Persimmon Scionwood (PER31)
    (Asian Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds )
    Created on 19 November 2021

32. Chienting Persimmon Scion wood (PER31)
    (Asian Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds )
    Created on 19 November 2021

33. Male D. lotus Persimmon Scionwood (PER30)
    (Asian Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds )
    A male clone of Diospyros lotus which is used as a rootstock for Asian and American persimmon varieties. Both a male and female tree (or branch) is needed to produce fruit and seed for starting Lotus …
    Created on 06 December 2020

34. Lampadina Asian Persimmon Scionwood (PER28)
    (Asian Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds )
    Created on 06 December 2020

35. Mandarino Asian Persimmon Scionwood (PER27)
    (Asian Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds )
    Created on 06 December 2020

36. Sugar Bear American Persimmon Scionwood (APE21)
    (American Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds )
    Created on 06 December 2020

37. H-128 American Persimmon Scionwood (APE20)
    (American Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds )
    Created on 06 December 2020

38. H-63A (Paradise)American Persimmon Scionwood (APE19)
    (American Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds )
    Created on 06 December 2020

39. Nikitskaya Bordovaya American Persimmon Scionwood (APE18)
    (American Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds )
    Also known as Nikita’s gift this hybrid American x Kaki persimmon has excellent cold tolerance as well as the sweetness of its Asian persimmon parentage. Astringent until ripe similar to other American …
    Created on 06 December 2020

40. Prairie Dawn-H-55A American Persimmon Scionwood (APE 17)
    (American Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds )
    Created on 06 December 2020

41. Prok American Persimmon Scionwood (APE 16)
    (American Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds )
    Created on 06 December 2020

42. Early Golden American Persimmon Scionwood (APE15)
    (American Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds )
    Created on 12 November 2020

43. Wonderful American Persimmon Scionwood (APE14)
    (American Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds )
    Created on 12 November 2020

44. Barbara’s Blush American Persimmon Scionwood (APE13
    (American Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds )
    Created on 12 November 2020

45. Tamopan Persimmon Scionwood (PER26)
    (Asian Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds )
    Created on 12 November 2020

46. Brazzale Persimmon Scionwood (PER25)
    (Asian Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds )
    Created on 12 November 2020

47. Vaniglia Persimmon Scionwood (PER24)
    (Asian Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds )
    Created on 12 November 2020

48. Bruniquel Asian Persimmon Scionwood (PER23)
    (Asian Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds )
    Created on 12 November 2020

49. Thiene Persimmon Scionwood (PER22)
    (Asian Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds )
    Created on 12 November 2020

50. Early Jewell American Persimmon Scionwood (APE9)
    (American Persimmon Scionwood and Seeds )
    Very large high quality seedless reddish orange fruit ripens early in September. Heavy producing strong growing tree bears annually and comes into bearing at a young age. It was originally known as H118 …
    Created on 21 January 2020

[clarkinks]

@hambone

I know one parent only based on other posts quoted from our forum. Hope that helps.

“Jerry Lehman’s Delight 100-46” [F-100 cross] (good fruit quality and production)"

Best native type persimmon

[snowflake]

Perhaps another way to do this would be to make sure such sites are backed up on archive.org, and then not recycle the content but instead provide links, rather than marketing materials.

For example, here is an old list from Brittain:
https://web.archive.org/web/20200223000522/http://nolinnursery.com/persimmon-trees/persimmon-diospyros-virginiana/
The company, as it was, is gone, but the content doesn’t need to be backed up here. On this site, we can discuss real experiences from growers. If people want to read marketing materials, they can then visit such related sites.

[clarkinks]

@snowflake

It is difficult because once a site or material is gone it is forever. Archive sites dissapeared as well. I have had 100s of pictures and documents lost through the years. Like the information @hambone is looking for on 100-46 it is challenging to locate.

Here is @Barkslip in the orchard at the time Jerry Lehman's Orchard Fall 2017

[snowflake]

@clarkinks

Archive sites dissapeared as well.

Technically, yes, even the internet will eventually disappear, but archive.org has been around “forever”, and will hopefully continue to serve its purpose for a long time.

[snowflake]

@clarkinks

I fixed the archive link above. Not sure what happened. Try it now.

[clarkinks]

@snowflake

Works great now! Thanks

[clarkinks]

@hambone

I’m going to quote an old thread which supports my original findings on f 100. What i didn’t know was “F-100 was just producing male flowers without any fruit” . See the quote from @Harbin below.

@Harbin

Here is my contribution to the topic. I grow 14 varieties that I received from Jerry Lehman: Early Golden, H-63A, H-118, H-120, I-93A, Juhl, Knightsville, Lena, Mohler, Prok, U-20A, WS 8-10, 100-45, 100-46. Two received from England were regrafted as Contessa was small, and poor grower and F-100 was just producing male flowers without any fruit. Sometimes I wonder if his wood is true to name. We had a perfect year without any late spring frost and long hot summer. Plenty of time to compare…and the winner is WS 8-10 aka Barbara’s Blush large and beautiful fruit with excellent taste, just about right to ripen here. It falls down clean from the tree without shrivelling. H-63A and H-120 come second, both are early and great to eat, H-63A has really good strong flavour. Third would be Prok - it is large and early but mild in taste. I will also keep Mohler - earliest cultivar with good taste and size and probably Early Golden for vintage reasons. The rest is more or less disappointment in my area: 100-46 nice good size fruit but never ripens the whole crop here. H-118 I really dislike because of the black spots on the skin look dirty and it takes forever to ripen. Juhl is OK, good size and taste and I’ll probably keep it.

Comparing American persimmons by specific traits

I haven’t tasted enough different named American persimmon varieties to say much about specific cultivars, but I’m interested in hearing comparisons from those of you that have tasted different cultivars, not just which you like best but descriptions of specific traits. Something that I think is especially overlooked when talking about the best persimmon varieties is that the best persimmon for fresh eating could be very different from the best persimmon for pulping out (for persimmon puddings,…

[snowflake]

@clarkinks

which supports my original findings on f 100

What is your original finding? Claypool’s spreadsheet lists it as having orange fruit. I thought that would be the original finding?

[clarkinks]

@snowflake

Exactly i told @hambone above f-100 was the parent.

@clarkinks

know one parent only based on other posts quoted from our forum. Hope that helps.

“Jerry Lehman’s Delight 100-46” [F-100 cross] (good fruit quality and production)"

Best native type persimmon