Duh! After a little thought, I’m embarrassed by my post. Let me try again, admitting that I didn’t even do Bio 2. I did have some statistics but that was more than 40 years ago.
If non-astringency is recessive, then presumably the D kaki supplies 3 genes for non-astringency. The D. virginiana is probably homozygous, and if so it supplies 3 genes for astringency. So the 1st generation hybrid is 3NA & 3A. If the 1st generation hybrid is then back-crossed with D. kaki, and assuming that distribution of genes during meiosis is random, then the 2nd generation hybrid could conceivably have 0 - 3 genes for astringency from its hybrid parent. I think (!) that the probability of selecting non-astringent three times without replacement is (3/6) x (2/5) x (1/4) = 1/20.
I don’t know what persimmons I’ve inherited, but the tree is loaded with small fruit like I’ve never seen on a wild persimmon before, and I know the pervious gardener here was very into natives, and I’m not seeing any fruit drop. It’s possible I have something close to this. Is what I have astrigent? No ripe persimmon should be astrigent, IMO. I’ve eaten from many trees in several states of the US, and if I was patient, every tree produced a gorgeously flavored fruit (pear / tangerine / cotton candy). I wait until they are getting overripe (bletting), turning somewhat purple with a white-ish cloud on the skin, they are soft, they release from the tree easily (if not already on the ground), and they smell somewhere between aromatically sweet and vaguely alcoholic. Hopefully this helps!
By astringent, we’re referring to persimmons that need to soften before they are eaten. Non astringent persimmons can be eaten as soon as they color up and are firm or even crunchy. All native persimmons are astringent, as are all hybrids (although there’s one out there that is non astringent when pollinated). As of right now, the only truly non-astringent persimmons are full Asian persimmons. Getting a hybrid that is non astringent and large like some Asian persimmons, but hardy like American persimmons, is something of a holy grail of persimmon breeding. But the genetics to get there is complicated.
How small we talking? There is a “male” D. virginiana persimmon nearby (that is what it was sold as) that has a handful of pea size/grape-size fruit on it.
What you describe sounds like an Common/American Persimmon (D. virginiana), especially since you’re in @tonyOmahaz5 neck of the country. Unless that person went out of his way to get early access to hybrids from OneGreenWorld or England Nursery, it’s unlikely to be a hybrid. There weren’t too many nurseries with hybrids available 10 years ago (I’m guessing the age of your trees). D. kaki can’t grow in your area without substantial protection according to Tony.
If it’s a half dollar, it’s highly unlikely to be a hybrid. One of the reasons to do the cross with D. kaki is to impart a larger size. Second, I believe OGW has only ever sold a single hybrid - Nikita’s Gift and that was only within the past few years.
I will make a first statement. non-astreingent hybrid persimmons currently exist, whether PCNA or PVNA. This is a fact.
I am always amused by rough statements. There is not a single Chinese persimmon with a dominant non-astreingent gene. There are several of them and all the descendants are also non-astreingent. I have this guy’s original persimmon in my garden. I have every intention of putting it near several pollinator hybrids like Universal, Nikita’s daughter, Rosseyanka’s male mutation (who is a true original F1 as well) … to see what will come out of it.
When to taste … there is something for everyone. And who has said that this fruit is not good.
All the descendants are of excellent quality.
As for statistics, it no longer makes sense in our time. In Russia, the gene for resistance to cold has been located and it is integrated into the embryo.
In Japan the non-astreingent gene has been located to easily create new PCNA varieties or eliminate the young before waiting for fruit. There are no more statistics but genetic engineering. The basic problem with PCNA varieties is degradation of genetic material. To remedy this, they resorted to this famous Chinese persimmon PCNA. China and Japan are now protecting their varieties and this persimmon is particularly protected. It is much easier to find a persimmon in Russia than this Chinese PCNA persimmon with a dominant non-astreingent gene.
If there are indeed PCNA hybrids, that is very exciting. Over here in the US, that’s unheard of at the moment. And I’m glad to hear they’re using genetic screening techniques to streamline the process. You can determine if it’s going to be cold hardy and/or PCNA without ever having to plant the seeds. As for the stats, I find it to be a good mental exercise for us to remind us why we’re not likely to hit the PCNA jackpot at the hobbyist level.
As far as I am aware, a D. virginiana x D. kaki hybrid that is nonastringent AND is as cold hardy as its D. virginiana parent doesn’t currently exist. We have cold hardy as D. virginiana and astringent already.
A hybrid that is nonastringent that is only as cold hardy as D. kaki isn’t as interesting (except maybe for breeders) because we can have that in D. kaki and a larger fruit size.
Subsequently, ‘Luotian-Tianshi’ was crossed to non-PCNA cultivars, and segregation among the offspring showed that the C-PCNA character of ‘Luotian-Tianshi’ was dominant and controlled by a single locus (the B/b locus) [Ikegami et al. 2006]. Therefore, ‘Luotian-Tianshi’ has potential as an important cross-parent for PCNA breeding because it is expected to produce 50% PCNA offspring in the F1 generation in crosses with either J-PCNA or non-PCNA.
I see we have the same readings.
But these test results are incomplete. There are other results, notably which show that other Chinese non-PCNA varieties are unrelated to Luotian tianshi, contrary to the initial hypotheses.
Yes it is Luo TIAN TIAN SHI who is in my garden.
You have 2 PCNA hybrids in Russia in Nikita’s garden.
You have 2 PVNA hybrids in EU and USA. So resistant to cold. For the weight … We must not dream. But the European is about 130 grams.
As for the resistance to cold, I am disappointed with Cherniaev’s Memoir. It is the earliest with Chinese black persimmon, which freezes first in spring.
The paper covers that already. It’s seems up to date…
The existence of a non-astringent persimmon cultivar of Chinese origin, ‘Luotian-Tianshi’, was first reported by Wang (1982); it had been previously believed that no non-astringent cultivars of Chinese origin existed. Its distribution was within a narrow area extending from Hubei Province to Henan Province. Subsequently, several other non-astringent cultivars, including ‘Tianbaogai’ (former name, ‘Baogai Tian Shi’), were found (Yonemori et al. 2005).
Are you referring to Nikita’s Gift? What is the name of the other PCNA? What are their names in russian?
Which 2 PVNA hybrids are you referring to that are in EU and USA? I saw a post mentioned in the past where you bought your JBT-06 and other hybrids from England Nursery. Does that mean that England Nursery has these 2 PVNA hybrids?! You have me excited if these cultivars are already stateside.
There’s no point in getting excited.
I am much less interested in persimmons than in the past … There is a moment you have to turn the page. It takes up a lot of space and I’m the only one. Eat the fruits.
In recent years I have lost a lot of varieties due to drought and feral pigs. I see it differently.
So I must have lost at least 80 varieties of persimmons I think. JBT 6 is one of the lost varieties.
I wonder how many people outside of China and Japan have Luo TIAN TIAN SHI.
How did he get to my place? … that’s a question.
I think I ordered it from Santa Claus. You always have to believe in it and it happens at the foot of the tree.
Seriously, a guy asks you how you seduced your wife and how to seduce her, you gonna tell him!
We are all collectors. We all know each other.
We all have specialties, and we use the specialties of our friends to progress and vice versa. It’s simple.
For Russian varieties it is the Nikitsky research center.
I’ll admit that I also look at genetics and statistics.
But if I was interested in persimmon it is precisely because you learn about this species every day.
For example, one of the current PVNA hybrids has neither parent that carries the non-astreingent gene. How do you explain it with the statistics. …
This is a good point. My attempt to work out some probabilities was an admittedly crude approximation based on simplifying assumptions. The genetics of astringency may be more complicated than assumed. Also, I didn’t even factor in the genetics of cold-hardiness. The odds of a cold-hardy AND non-astringent cross would be 1/20 x 1/20 = 1/400 – or worse if cold-hardiness is driven by multiple genes, which it probably is.
All this from someone who admits to having no formal training in genetics.
I have friends and or family overseas that could send me varieties located in Japan and China such as luotian tianshi. UPS overnight. There are plenty of scion trading clubs and groups (visa vie FB) that share propagation material without much regard for border controls. I was just kind of hoping you would tell me that they were purchased from England or some other stateside nursery. If I was less squeamish about being possibly responsible for a outbreak of plum pox virus and circumventing quarantine requirements, I would just ask my family to UPS overnight prunus persica scion from France for a few heirlooms that I’ve been trying to track down.
The explanation is simple. There are three possibilities. In two of the scenarios, the genetics analysis was incomplete; either the parent has the gene or the progeny doesn’t. The last possibility is a mutation, but the likelihood of a point mutation occurring in the exact ast locus needed for the intended attribute targeted in the cross is arguably smaller than the likelihood of human error in the original analysis. (It also raises the competence of the original breeder - why you would use known two homozygous parents and assume you’d produce a heterozygous progeny.) In most cases as you pointed out, they didn’t even know or keep track of the D. virginiana pollen donator for the D. kaki x D. virginiana hybrids.
I’d still like to know the name of the purported 2 PVNA nonastringent hybrids you mentioned are in the EU and US. As far as I know (and when I recently checked with Cliff), anything that has made its way here recently, Gorvela series, Sestronkaora series, Sestronka, Sovietski, etc… are all astringent.
I looked at the import requirements, and they’re actually not too bad for most plants (peaches may have some extra restrictions). Basically, you need to have it mailed to inspectors at a pot of entry, who then forward it to you. Then you just need to keep them 10’ away from other plants for 2 years and be willing to be inspected, and report if any die.
@Arhus76 if you let us know what those PCNA hybrids are, there are many people who would be interested in importing them legally
