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yeah this is the worrisome part, as when i did a bit more sleuthing of NMSU’s website, the magnified photo of the second pic posted as alcalde’s thorns look quite the same as ogw’s autumn beauty. And the fruits as well, showing up as relatively large fruits of cylindrical forms with wide girths and relatively flat on one dimension(the z-axis) but broad on the the other dimension(x-axis), while its overall length is relatively long(y-axis).
The same as the ogw autumn beauty that you have, and the ogw autumn beauty that i have.
anyway, encircled below are the thorns enhanced from NMSU’s second photo of alcalde branches Hopefully it was just a clerical error by nmsu website(or error by your alcalde source)

and below are my autumn beauty from ogw, note the fruits and thorns similar to what you have. The thorns are also forward tilting and quite long


and thought i’d post @Bhawkins correspondence with ogw from several years ago
i had a similar conversation with their new management when i ordered another black sea, massandra, and autumn beauty


I can’t really say that the fruits are dissimilar since both trees have been very stingy with fruit and the alcalde last year was very stressed and actually the late fruit was from a delayed bloom. So…another mystery. I will have to say that there were a few small branches on my AB that actually had small thorns that matched the small thorns on the alcalde but most branches had the presence of the large forward slanted spikes. I have two more AB’s that I grafted last year With scion from Cliff England that the old wood has the large thorns but the new growth does not.

IF… these do turn out to be so similar then it sure takes some strength out of the registered trademark for NMSU. ???

I remember reading the @Bhawkins thread regarding Winter Delight. I have the Mango Dong Zao from JF&E and it’s fruits and thorn characteristics match my AB. I also have grafts from @castanea ‘s Winter Delight which had a fruit until last week when it dropped.


thorn length may be influenced by rootstock, but i only have anecdotal evidnece from what have seen on some juju grafts. The pictures posted by nmsu as qiyue xian, which was renamed and trademarked as alcalde, look exactly the same as that of the qiyue xian trademarked as autumn beauty by ogw.

i actually think they are the same, primarily because the long and distally tilting thorns are unique. Have been watching juju thorns for many years(all >70 cultivars of them) and haven’t really seen anything as distinctly stereotypical as the forward tilt of thorns that are ~1.5" long or greater. For two sources to sell or post pictures of a cultivar exhibiting just that, and both of them with the chinese name qiyue xian that bear similarly sized and shaped fruits, i will have to conclude both claimants trademarked the cultivar qiyue xian as autumn beauty and alcalde.

of course, it is possible that the “true” qiyue xian has short thorns, and that the pics at nmsu website were posted by mistake(probably posted ogw’s qiyue xian with the distinctive thorns).

conversely, also posible that ogw’s qiyue xian with long thorns is the real deal, and that alcalde is not the true qiyue xian but actually another cultivar with short thorns, just like the tree you already have which has tiny, if not negligible thorns

below is nmsu’s webpage with the picture i hightlighted above. The first entry Alcalde being aka’d as qiyue xian


My oldest Autumn Beauty has very tiny thorns, 0.1-0.2". My Alcalde#1 was only planted this spring, its only grown a foot so who knows what it will do in the future; no thorns that I can see; but its covered in flowers, maybe I’ll get a few fruit

Hopefully Prof Yao publishes the results of her genetic testing soon. Here’s a picture of an Alcalde #1 from her workshop last fall, its looks a little different from my Autumn Beauty, but its hard to say for sure from a pic.


fwiw, my Coco, Xu Zhou, Autumn Beauty, Shihong, Contorted So, & Honey Jar have branch breaking loads this year. But the Chico’s only have only a few fruit; weird. I should get my first real Winter Delight this summer.


Thanks for posting that @Bhawkins. Ogw’s autumn beauty fruits do look similar to the alcalde fruits in the picture you just posted.

Anyway, looking forward to your updates re: your alcalde tree


Just looked at a 3 year old Autumn Beauty OGW. Has a few 1/2" thorns, looking forward; but not many. Light load of fruit. The tree mentioned earler is 11 years old.


the only other cultivar(that i know of) that will sometimes bear long-ish and forward tilting thorns is r4t3. The good news is that its fruits have no semblance whatsoever to fruits of ogw’s autumn beauty


Forgot to ask you @k8tpayaso, are those the first fruits of your contorted seedling?


Yes. So maybe that too means they might get bigger???

I have at least three contorted seedlings with fruit that is holding this year. The one that I posted is about to turn and one in the orchard has different shaped fruit that are oval and still very green. Another seedling had one fruit and I haven’t checked it lately but it wasn’t sizing up much the last time I looked. Other than a couple of rootstock seedlings that bore sour fruit these are the first cultivar seedlings that are bearing. I have fruitlets on V Candy seedling and V Baby seedling that might hold. I think all the fruitlets on V Candy and V Spicy have dropped. Booty fruitlets dropped. Oh well…

My rootstock tree that has been a big disappointment in supplying seeds is literally loaded with fruit. I’m giving it one more chance this year for that fruit to produce viable seeds and if not I’m gonna chop it’s head off!!!


fruits of Texas Twister, Texas twisty and t. twirly should get bigger over several yrs after their first crop :slight_smile: I see you have them planted directly on mother earth.


All these actually came from your orchard… they are just enjoying our dirt… :flushed::joy:

One of these is still in a pot. I’m sure it will score a place in the orchard soon.


Looking forward to updates on your vegas-texas series!


Spent the weekend repotting my March seedlings. This isn’t all of them…the ones that haven’t grown as well are still in the small pots but these have grown so fast that they needed to be done now so that they can continue to grow before winter. Many of the XuZhou already have a 3mm and larger trunk size. Beautiful little trees.


What is your potting mix? The trees seem hapoy with it,


I’m making my own. I’m buying a local landscape growers mix and I’m adding perlite and osmocote. The landscape mix is mostly pine bark fines with a bit of peat and sand. I am pushing them a bit with fertilizer but they seem to like it.


a most meaningful and beautiful endeavor @k8tpayaso :slight_smile:


Kathy wow :open_mouth:
You’re very lucky to have so many seedlings. I envy you :relaxed:



This is a one year seedling of V. Candy

This is a one year seedling of V. Baby

This is a 10 month old Honey Jar seedling

The 4 month old that bloomed did not set fruit! :flushed:


I hope at least one of them is promising :slight_smile: