American Persimmon Family Tree

General Fruit Growing
169

The difference in climate between these two areas is negligible. The difference in soil could be a bigger factor. I wonder how much went into the ratings on Claypool’s notes. Was it only the first or second year the tree had fruited? Were the ratings based only on one year? Like other fruit, persimmons can have off years too.

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170

Yes, I agree you are quibbling. :rofl:

I liked this observation:

171

The nut growers would disagree with you.

172

Does anyone have an electronic copy of this document?

Campbell, D., 1980. Northern Persimmons. Nutshell, 33(2), pp.9-11.

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Richard, I’m gonna tell you frankly – if you insist that 90 miles at nearly the same latitude and elevation within the same (or neighboring) growing zones has such an extreme impact on the flavor of an American persimmon that it accounts for a difference between ratings of outstanding and average, then I lose faith in everything you say. For me, you’ve destroyed your own credibility.

Plus, the retort (paraphrased), “I’m not quibbling, you are” is just childish. I’d expect more from my 7-year old grandson.

174

A plant has a complete biopath which produces a chemical output causing fruit to be astringent when immature. For the sake of discussion, let’s speculate this biopath involves 50 or 100 individual genes each of which contribute something toward the final result of astringent fruit. We can see the obvious reason a plant would develop this trait since it prevents varmints from eating the fruit before seed are mature. We can look at tomatoes which produce anthocyanins and caroteinoids both to protect fruit from UV and from varmints as a parallel example. When seed are mature, the plant gains a survival advantage if animals consume the fruit and spread the seed therefore the plant develops a trait to make fruit lose astringency when mature.

It is easy for a mutation to disable a biopath entirely. This can be proven by looking at protein synthesis where even a slight change in signaling can cause something entirely different from the desired protein to be produced. An example with tomato is the green mature fruit mutation which totally disables the carotenoid biopath. Phytochemistry says a plant can produce a given chemical result only when the entire biopath operates in the expected sequence. So we introduce a mutation in persimmon which disables the astringent biopath causing the operative chemicals to be produced in a modified non-astringent form. As a result, persimmon fruit are no longer astringent at any stage of growth. Would it be a safe guess this is exactly the case with JPCNA persimmons? In other words, is the causative mutation for JPCNA a change that disables a biopath?

175

I think this has been established, with one caveat: The J-PCNA mutation does not “disable the biopath” to astringency unless it is present in all 6 chromosomes. Why did this mutation in one gene thousands of years ago become sufficiently widespread to become the only version in some wild varieties (later domesticated)?

176

@jrd51
This is what Jerry wrote:

I’m often asked which is the best tasting. Taste is subjective. What may be
best for my self, others may not judge as best. If it isn’t good here in
Indiana it isn’t distributed.

177

In genetics, it is believe to have occurred in Diospyros during the O(100) mY history of its transition from dioecy. In ecology, it is believed to have sustained due to selective pressure.

178

I see two assertions: (1) Taste is subjective. But nobody has disputed this point. (2) Jerry would not sell a variety that he did not believe tastes good. That says nothing about the impact of geography on taste. He seems to be saying, "I won’t behavior as if the taste to be good (by distributing a tree) when IMO it is not.

179

Here is

McDaniel, J. 1980. A plant breeder looks at some American tree crops: Morus, Gleditsia, and Diospyros. Tree crops for energy co-production on farms Estes Park, CO.

McDaniel 1980 - A Plant Breeder Looks at Some American Tree Crops.pdf (752.6 KB)

180

This 1923 pamphlet contains information about persimmon propagation and a complete grafting guide, plus on page 25 a list of cultivars obtained from the wild.

Farmer’s Bulletin 685.pdf (3.4 MB)

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181

Goodall provides some interesting tidbits about cultivars on p.181. He also writes:

The astringency of unripe persimmons is thought to be caused by the chemical compound leucodelphinidin (Griffith and Griffith). As a single molecule leucodelphinidin causes astringency, but polymeric chains of leucodelphinidin longer than four molecules lose their ability to react with the oral mucosa. Ethylene gas evolved during natural ripening or supplied artificially removes astringency by catalyzing the polymerization of leucodelphinidin molecules. The use of ethylene gas is the only artificial ripening method that Eugene and Mary Griffith acknowledge in their book, Persimmons for Everyone. In their opinion the prevalent notion that freezing can remove astringency began because the natural ripening period and the frost season often coincide.

American persimmons that are still firm and astringent can be fully ripened by being subjected to 50 ppm ethylene gas for 24 hours and then allowed to sit for several days at room temperature. Creating such a high concentration of ethylene gas is not practical in the average household kitchen, however.

In more practical curing methods it is unclear how ripe a persimmon must be when it is picked. The Griffiths state emphatically that the fruits must begin to soften on the tree. Others report successful off-tree ripening of firm, green fruit when it is stored either at room temperature or in a refrigerator. As with the Oriental kaki, this characteristic probably varies from tree to tree. I have not attempted to ripen green fruit artificially.

Goodell 1982 - Two Promising Fruit Plants for Northern Landscapes.pdf (1.5 MB)

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One consistency re ethylene is the number of diverse fruits which ripen in the presence of ethylene. Apples, bananas, tomatoes (almost all solanum fruits), and persimmons undergo a ripening phase which is catalyzed by ethylene. For a biopath to be so highly conserved over literally hundreds of millions of years, suggests it is one of the most critical in fruit bearing plants.

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183

In the book “Persimmons for Everyone” by E & M Griffith, J. McDaniel begins a lively discussion of cultivars on p.113

184

Then on page 576 of the classic by Brooks and Olmo …

185

Interesting read. Thanks.

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186

This may not be universally true, but in much of Michigan it can definitely be substantial.

187

Rich Tooie? I have never heard of it. You guys are a wealth of knowledge. I just bough what is supposed to be a Morris Burton from Chestnut Hill nursery in Northern Florida. I am interested in the supposedly non astringent or early astringency cessation characteristics of certain cultivars.

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188

@CarolinaZone
I recommend you try one of these threads:

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