From photos I’ve seen, it looks like the fruit are too small to fool with.
This thread is probably a good starting point for you:
1 Like
So you wouldn’t grow blueberries or raspberries or cherries or grapes?
6 Likes
I think I can understand Zone6’s point, as persimmons have other larger kaki/hybrid varieties that are larger and arguably taste as good as the American varieties. If blueberries/raspberries/cherries/grapes have larger fruit varieties and taste as good, I would prioritize those when planting…but alas, there aren’t as many options as there are persimmons.
Well, the OP didn’t say anything like that. From the way the title is phrased, I doubt that the author has done enough research thus far to be thinking about the issue in as sophisticated a way as you are.
Anyway, anyone in Z6 will have no real hope of long-term success with in-ground trees of Kaki varieties. A cold but normal Z6 winter will bring minimum temps of -5 F or worse, which will kill all the Kakis.
So that leaves hybrids. Many hybrids (e.g., Nikita’s Gift) are also killed by temps below -5 F. Some hybrids (e.g., JT-02) are tougher (and bigger) but ripen late so they may not work either. Finally, some hybrids (e.g., Kasandra) are cold hardy and mid-season ripeners – but they’re just as small as Americans!
My recommendation to @Zone6 would be to get over the size issue and plant Kasandra.
2 Likes
He has a 15 years old beautiful Nikita’s Gift…What is the magic for picking Nakita's Gift Persimmon? - #4 by Zone6
I have yet to taste any kaki that’s got the rich flavor of a good virginiana, but I haven’t tasted the hybrids.
3 Likes
Just for the sake of argument, that little richer, sweeter taste of American persimmon comes at a price of much smaller size, a lot of seeds, lingering astringency and the worst: hygienic issues caused by dropping fruits on the ground.
Saijo and Niu Nai are quite close to the taste of American persimmons, at least to my insensitive taste buds. I only tried Prok, BB, Hershey large and Hershey small American persimmons.
2 Likes
Just had a tree ripened H118/Early Jewel persimmon. Wow! It has such a complexity of flavor - I was able to taste Rose flavor in addition to raisins, dates, rum and the usual other flavors.
It is my favorite this year - even ahead of my large collection of hybrids and kakis!
Consistent with last year, it is better than h63a.
Unfortunately it grows very slowly in my climate. I’ll have to feed it heavily next year so it gets some size.
I’ll bite. It’s more than a “little” richer, sweeter, and better tasting. I do have Saijo that you mentioned along with others and they are great also. If I had to choose though I’ll stick with my Americans. But that’s just my taste.
1 Like
Why not try Nikita’s Gift or Rosseyanka? They are great hybrids. I would recommend Nikita’s if you prefer Kaki flavor.
Probably only a 1/4 of places where persimmons can be grown in the U.S. are conducive to kaki’s needs without resorting to a high intensity artificial environment, or labor intensive protective practices. Many places, all but the hardiest and earliest hybrids are not feasible, though the selection is definitely improving rapidly. Natives and select list of hybrids are currently the only real feasible prospects for many of us. I also prefer the flavor of natives over kaki. Haven’t tried any hybrids yet.
Delicious things come in small packages sometimes. They can be very large as well
You might not realize how great tasting an American persimmon can be. The hybrids of kaki / american ofcourse can have the best features of both.
2 Likes
Maybe I’m mistaken but most or all american persimmon varieties I see for sale seem to be northern selections. Is there a reason for this? Iirc the northern ones have a different chromosome count from southern but is there a difference flavor wise or growth besides hardiness?
I’ve never tasted an american persimmon fruit but I’ve seen a treee in my neighborhood and want to go explore for more.
Ditto. For taste. I’ll take my Americans over Saijo.
1 Like
So what am I doing wrong?
Background: Among Americans, I grow and fruit Barbra’s Blush, H63A, and Dollywood. Not relevant now, I also grow H-118 but it’s not fruiting yet. I am also growing various other Kakis and hybrids. Comments below relate only to varieties I grow and have fruited.
- The Americans vary. All are sweet. Dolllywood is the biggest and most consistent for high quality – mild flavored but good tasting, generally unblemished. Sometimes it can be picked ripe before it drops; but if it drops it is usually non astringent and clean. So far so good, keeping in mind the mild flavor.
On the other hand, BB and H63A are inconsistent. H63A hangs on the tree pretty well, so it can usually be picked ripe and non astringent. But it’s easy to pick it a little early, with a resulting nasty surprise astruingency. BB is similar but it tends to drop. The dropped fruit is sometimes still astringent plus sometimes damaged or dirty. The flavor of both is stronger, which can be quite good but sometimes is off-putting. In other words, the strong flavors aren’t always enjoyable. Finally, to achieve the proper non-astringency, it can be necessary to ripen the fruit to the point where it is just gooey – maybe best eaten with a spoon.
-
The hybrid Kasandra, which grows nearby, is unequivocally better. The fruit is unblemished. The fruit remains attached until picked, and the calyx is tightly connected to the fruit so there is no rot near the stem. It can be challenging to produce a fully ripe fruit that is still unblemished, maybe because the season is turning cold and hostile as the fruit ripens. It is very easy to make a mistake by picking and eating a fruit that is soft, sweet and non astringent at the base but still firm and bitter near the stem. But if the fruit is fully ripe, the flavor is far superior to the Americans – sweet and rich, maybe caramel. Note that most of my Kasandra fruit are seeded, thanks to some PVNA Kakis nearby.
-
The Kaki Saijo, which grows 30 yards away in a pot, is also better IMO. The fruit is usually unblemished. The calyx is firmly attached with no sign of rot. It’s easy to tell when the fruit is fully ripe – it is soft to the touch from one end to the other. Given this degree of ripeness, there is little or no residual astringency. The flavor is pure Kaki – sweet and yummy.
-
The Kaki Ichi Ki Kei Jiro (PCNAs) has the potential to be better than the Americans, if well ripened. Granted, an unripe PCNA tastes like an enhanced sweet carrot. But a fully ripe PCNA is not far off from Saijo. And if the ripe IKKJ is put in a dehydrator for a few hours, concentrating the flavor, it can become exquisite. Yes, I know that this may be unfair: I need to try dehydrating both Americans and Kasandra.
-
The hybrid JT-02 seems like an enhanced PCNA flavor-wise. It is astringent, so like Saijo must be soft all over to be ripe and non-astringent. But the taste seems very similar to a ripe PCNA possibly with a little extra richness.
Bottom line: Based on my experience so far (three years eating home grown Americans), I find the quality and flavor inconsistent and therefore on average inferior to all of the other options. I’ll readily admit that maybe 10% of the time, the quality of the Americans matches (maybe exceeds) the quality the others. But I don’t really have the patience for disappointment.
Suggestions?
5 Likes
Or haskaps, or strawberries, or currants, or aronia, gooseberries, the list goes on…
Persimmons are amazing, in the running for my favorite fruit. Until you have good ones it’s hard to understand.
2 Likes
Tony has already begun to change that narrative in Z5 with his seedling efforts.
1 Like
@Zone6 … the top two most delicious fruits that I grow…
Are figs and persimmons… and I have a hard time deciding which one is #1 or #2.
They are both about the same size (1.5-2").
There are varieties of fig and persimmon that often get larger than that. You could focus on the larger ones.
I saw 100-46 Lehmans Delight at Englands Orchard and it was a whopper.
A 2 to 2.5 inch persimmon is a good mouth full of fruit.
They are very delicious and can be grown spray free.
Over the past two seasons… i have successfully grafted to my own rootstock… Prok, Barbara’s Blush, Mohler, H63A, H118, Rich Tooie (Americans) and JT02, Nikitas Gift, Kasandra, Journey (hybrids)… and bought and planted two (Asians) IKKJiro and Cardinal.
I hope to add Dar Sofiyivky and Saijo next spring. That will complete my persimmon collection… i think 
TNHunter
6 Likes
My Blackjack fig always closes out the season with about 20% actually ripening, long after my Breba crop on Desert King has completed. This variety would do much better in a warmer region with less fall rainfall than I have here in zone 8a. I should also mention that this tree took about 15 years to begin to ripen in my zone, so definitely requires some patience. It’s on a south facing wall. At the same time my Zima Khourma persimmon is turning color and this one was ripened using @TNHunter glass method! Works very well with no astringency. Its sweetness and texture is similar to Giant Fuyu. IKKJ, Kasandra, Cardinal, and Zima Khurma are my only fruiting persimmons this year. Maybe next year a few of my 3 year old grafts will produce.
Dennis
Kent, Wa
Black Jack fig
Black Jack and Zima Khurma
5 Likes