I didn’t say “no breeding”; I said “no PCNA breeding.” By that I meant no breeding of PCNA x PCNA designed to produce PCNA offspring. That only happened in Japan and Korea.
There has been extensive breeding work in Ukraine, of course. I’m not sure about Russia, per se; and I will not tolerate confusion between the two. But my understanding is that the Ukrainian program focused on cold hardiness. Thus, the Ukrainian hybrids are all some combination of astringent Kaki and astringent Virginiana. OK, maybe there was a random PCNA or PVNA thrown into the mix. But there were never any PCNA x PCNA crosses, which is what would be required for a non-astringent offspring.
And of course, the U.S. and Japan cooperated to produce JT-02. That is a mix of non-astringent Kaki and astringent Virginiana. But again there is no possibility that such a cross will produce a PCNA offspring.
Maybe there has been some secret PCNA x PCNA breeding elsewhere. So you can amend my phrase to read "no published PCNA breeding. . . . " Let me ask you directly: Can you name a single named PCNA variety released publicly by any breeding station outside those in Japan and Korea?
p.s. You know, I’m sure, that I have strongly advocated back-crossing JT-02 with Taishu (or with any other male-flowering PCNA Kaki). I believe that there are people in the U.S. planning such crosses. So I don’t count out the U.S. at all – as a future contributor.
Chineruli looks exactly same as Fuyu. It seems like the same fruit with different name by two different countries: Japan is calling it Fuyu and China is calling it Chineruli.
It is like the exactly same soybean paste is called differently by Koreans and Japanese; Koreans call it Doen-Jang and Japanese call it Miso.
I’m not aware of any strictly PCNA breeding in published research, although there are some published Chinese studies I’ve seen describing more than a handful of individuals which have dominant PCNA genetics based on my understanding.
Japan has been breeding new PCNA varieties since the 40’s or before. They’ve had >20 public releases, some with familiar names, including Suruga (1959), Izu (1970), and Taishu (1995). Research was centered at facilities in Akitsu and Okitsu. Korea started later but has released roughly 10 varieties starting in ~2010. Most of the research was performed at a facility in Youngam. The stated goal of both initiatives is to produce higher quality nonastringent (PCNA) fruit mainly for the local commercial industries.
Early research focused on simple crosses of known PCNA names. But the genetic diversity among PCNAs is low, so progress was limited. Increasingly the work has tried to incorporate more genetic diversity, turning to PCNA x PCA crosses followed by backcrosses to PCNA males – exactly like the strategy I propose for a non-astringent hybrid PCNA x DV. The Japanese are also now exploring use of the Chinese PCNA, which appears to have different and easier genetics.
Here’s one example among dozens of published articles on the efforts.
Apologies for taking this off topic, but those two things are completely different from each other. Yes, they’re both (mostly, in the case of miso) fermented soybeans, but the manufacturing process, fermentation microbes, and flavor profiles are all different.
Did you end up buying Sunrise? I bought this previous winter and have had it in a large pot since. First leaf was a slow year but it grew slightly and survived this winter, it’s buds are starting to swell now for what will be 2nd leaf.
I emailed Dithmar the other day for his opinion on how Sunrise has been doing as a selection in the following years. Here’s his response:
“Last summer it performed extremely well. It was loaded with fruit and more important: it had one of the highest brix values of all. It was also among the first to ripen. Another client who lives at 1100m in the alps (short season) is also very positive. So I’m confident it should do well in Ireland.”
I’ll have to get it in the ground if it’s that promising! I made a thread about it too a while back with some of his comments from facebook.
Interesting that it’s offspring from Nishijo and it’s a straight Kaki not a hybrid.
I buyed it, but I got a small tree that I kept in a pot for now. I think I will wait with puting it in the ground until it gets bigger to be on the safe side. But I am happy to hear that Dithmar still says so positive things about this variety!
Mine arrived very small too and is still small. I will put it in the ground this year I think. Did you get Kassandra too? Mine came even smaller and died that spring.
btw whats the opinion about Sestronka (NB-21). I don’t see too much talked about it. Cliff said a few years ago if i wanted American flavor but wanted larger fruit that can pick it early in the hard stage like an Asian then this is a good one to go for.
I think I may have seen its extremely non-productive in a post somewhere on here. Is that true?
There’s more newer hybrids for me to graft (like Zima khurma (NB-02), Kasandra, Mikkusu kaki Hybrid (JT-02), Chuchupaka, Dr Kazas Hybrid, Prok x Hokkaido Male, Sofie’s Gift, even maybe old hybrid like Rosseyanka might still be better?) …
So wondering if I should graft on top of it or give it away for a friend to try.
EDIT:
Here was that 1 post i found saying someone only got 1 fruit:
Here is another one, maybe same person giving review of the 1 fruit:
Yeh I saw that as well. I don’t mind as I’m in zone 7a/b Philadelphia.
Anything else thats cold-hardy I’m sending to a few friends in colder zones.
Have room for maybe a couple more trees so I want the best hybrid :), one that has American ‘in-your-face butterscotch-caramel’ flavors but larger and can pick in the hard stage.
No subtle flavors/notes, need that punch-in-your-face flavor.
Taste is subjective, of course, but Kasandra may fit the bill. It is strongly flavored.
JT-02 may disappoint you. It’s good but not a punch int he face. It seemed to me like a modestly more intense PCNA Kaki.
Those are the only two hybrids I grow currently. I’ve got scions of Nikita’s Gift but I think it may ripen too late here. Sofie’s Gift is next on my wish list.
Here are some of new Kaki and hybrid persimmons that crossed with the cold hardy male Cheong Pyong. Hopefully the Kaki seedlings will be more cold hardy than it’s parents then back cross them with Jerry Lehman cold hardy hybrid male 400-5.
I grow Sestronka, JT-02, and Nikita’s Gift (all scionwood from Cliff England), and Sestronka is my favorite for flavor. It tastes the most like an American persimmon. All three have been about the same in terms of production.
Nice! Got any pics of its fruit so can see its size? (or can describe its size?)
Can you pick it in the hard-phase and let it ripen? I assume its astringent and have to wait till it softens.
You’re right, it’s astringent and needs to be eaten when it softens.i haven’t tried picking the fruit and ripening them off the tree, but it has worked for me with JT-02.
I left them in the fridge for about a month then use miracle growth potting mix in a cup with the seed buried about 1/2 inch near the sunny window. They will sprout in bout 3 weeks.
